ROAD RACING Your Birel

[Marc Miller]

This thread is to share set-ups and information regarding Road Racing / Enduro racing your Birel chassis.

[Marc Miller]

Noah Stark Wrote:

I just got a 08 CRX-32 shifter. I have 17yrs of karting experience so pretty much a kart is a kart in my eyes. However I do alot of long track road racing. I dont see too many Birels out there and just wondering if anybody has any experience road racing them. Also if there is any set-up help, that would be greatly appriciated. This is my first Birel and hopefully not my last... :)

[Marc Miller]

Noah,

Out of all the engineers/mechanics/staff here at MRP, I probably have the most road racing experience. I have run about 8 different brands and they all respond well to the same things in regards to road race set-up.

Here is what I would do to start with- again, this is my personal settings.

Standard pills (should come with .5 degree on top and o degree on bottom) - run least caster setting.

Remove ackerman (I ran longer tie-rods and set tire rods in center position) - I always found this to be better on the longer sweeping corners.

Softer or medioum soft axle. I ran the Freeline "B" axle quite a bit, but have found considerable luck with the "F" axle. I always ran a Freeline axle anyways.

Width: rear, about 54.5" to start, sometimes narrower. Front width I would start in the middle and almost always ended up 2-3 lines out, unless I had trouble going loose off slow and mid-speed corners, then I would move it out a little.

The biggest things were to make sure you spend the time squaring the kart. I would never scale them, but I always stringed it.

Tires: Can't help you too much here, but when we ran a somewhat soft MG yellow, I started around 9-11 lbs. I can't imagine that changing too much.

[Noah Stark]

Just a update for everybody on the results of daytona.

Monday Stock Honda- 1st Noah Stark Birel CRX-32, NSEW CR125 ; 2nd Michael Moshenek Monza Z32, NSEW CR125. Fast time Noah Stark

Tuesday Stock Honda- 1st and fast time Michael Moshenek. I had a spark plug go bad and finished 8th.

The '08 CRX-32 worked pretty well. Had a hard time finding rear grip, but eventually found it. I had absolutely no issues with the chassis what-so-ever all weekend and it responded very very well to small changes. Ended up at 54 3/8" rear width, full narrow on the front, rear bar in and flat, side bar in, no front bar, min castor and camber, zero toe.

All-in-all I couldn't of asked for the Birel to work any better and even the Monza worked great. Thanks again!!

[Garry Lobaugh]

Thank you for sharing the information.

Great report and fantastic job.

Birels work!

[Noah Stark]

They sure do!!!

Gary, Im gonna call you this coming week. I have a few things I would like to discuss with you.

Also, what is the best way to lower the front end more on the CRX-32SE? With the washers being conical and stuff, they can only go in, in 2 ways. You must have one thin washer on each side and you have the option of either another thin washer(1mm) or a thick washer(2mm) on either side. More adjustability would of been great this past weekend. The front end and bodywork sits pretty high and also it would of helped remove some front turn in grip which I battled especially on harder tires. Also why is the steering shaft not drilled for zero ackerman?

I did however really like how the kart responded to minor weight changes. I moved the motor back about 1/2" to try and gain rear grip and it did exactly that.

My advise to anybody who is going to roadrace a Birel is to start with it pretty much how you would short track it. Just remove the toe and castor and you should have a great baseline. I pay very very close attention to tire temps and minor chassis changes made the approiate differences in the temps which in my eyes tells me the chassis is working properly with its-self and the driver.

BTW: the kart had the stiff "M" axle in it....

[Garry Lobaugh]

Thanks Noah for the update. I'm the marketing guy so I'll send this request along to Chris who will assist. Congrats on your great showing and also the sharing.

[Marc Miller]

They sure do!!!

Gary, Im gonna call you this coming week. I have a few things I would like to discuss with you.

Also, what is the best way to lower the front end more on the CRX-32SE? With the washers being conical and stuff, they can only go in, in 2 ways. You must have one thin washer on each side and you have the option of either another thin washer(1mm) or a thick washer(2mm) on either side. More adjustability would of been great this past weekend. The front end and bodywork sits pretty high and also it would of helped remove some front turn in grip which I battled especially on harder tires. Also why is the steering shaft not drilled for zero ackerman?

I did however really like how the kart responded to minor weight changes. I moved the motor back about 1/2" to try and gain rear grip and it did exactly that.

My advise to anybody who is going to roadrace a Birel is to start with it pretty much how you would short track it. Just remove the toe and castor and you should have a great baseline. I pay very very close attention to tire temps and minor chassis changes made the approiate differences in the temps which in my eyes tells me the chassis is working properly with its-self and the driver.

BTW: the kart had the stiff "M" axle in it....

Noah-

With the front end set-up you have now, you can either run the spindles up or down, but we have parts available (like what comes standard on the '09 models) that allow a larger range of adjustment for front ride height. Call BeaveRun, I am sure they have the parts you need in stock.

The steering shaft that comes standard on 2008 karts didn't have the center hole drilled. In Europe, they just don't take ackerman out - they don't use the karts for road racing and if the factory team never finds use for zero ackerman, they don't produce it - HOWEVER - the older steering colum (part #10.0481.00) is the same size, same length but has the center holes and it is still in production too :)

As far as axles go - the M axle would be a good choice... I always ran soft axles personally and adjusted it a little narrower with longer hubs - but the opposite (harder axle) seems to work well too on other parts of the track. As you know, the corners are so much longer, your ultimate goal is to reduce the amount of strain on the motor during the corner (hence the reduction in caster, ackerman, etc), so if you have to sacrifice some mechanical grip to keep it from pulling the motor down, so be it. I just was chatting with Chris about this, and we both agree that it might be worth trying a 1000mm "M" or "F" axle on a big track and trying it out as opposed to a standard 1040mm. Test test test.

The good thing about road racing is - it is hard to take your shifter out and test on a lot of the tracks we would normally race on - so good drivers with reasonable skill/knowledge/equipment can all be competitive. The drawback - when you want to test, it is during a practice day with your competition there and you have to be pretty prepared/switched on to try 2-3 different axle combos.

[Jason Bell]

Is there a preference to what seat people like for road racing their Birel? I am currently using a full padded Caliba seat, but I am interested in switching to either a Ribtect or a Tillet 1/4 pad. Any reasoning behind what seat would be best or does it even make much of a difference? My only reasoning for wanting a Ribtect is simply because I like the way I fit in them.

[Marc Miller]

Personally, I prefer non-padded seats. If you must have padding, the tillett 1/4 pad is a good option. Anything that pushes you further up and forward (padding) is not necessary in my opinion.

If you want a deepseat or ribtect, they will work fine, just make sure your local dealer has a firm grasp of proper seat location for those seats.

[Dan Schlosser]

At the Woodbridge Kart Club season opener at Summit Point we sent a C28 Cadet for a brand new driver to run as an Arrive & Drive. It was Keely's first ever race outdoors, coming to the table with some Indoor experience. Keely went faster every session and under the tutelage ot Scott Cain and Mike Punsalan she brought home a third place finish!

The winner was another Birel we sold last year that cleaned up at Woodbridge winning several races with Arie Ammann at the wheel. The kart was run by Eli Brown this weekend in what we believe was his first race anywhere in any kart!

So First and Third finishes for Birel cadets at Summit Point. While the C28 is known best for it's sprint track history, it is equally as dominant on the long tracks.

[Hal Brown]

My name is Hal Brown and I am new to this forum and would like to say hello. I am Eli Brown's dad and tuner. We just got back from the NJMP Lightning course races with the WKC and Eli took two more wins in his Birel C28 Cadet.

He and the runner-up also shaved 1.3 seconds off of the existing Cadet lap record.

Eli and I are both new to karting but we are learning a lot, having a blast, and just trying to go a little faster each time out.

[Dan Schlosser]

Congrats on another great weekend with Eli!

Glad the C28 is working out well for you guys. If I'm not mistaken that kart remains undefeated on track since last season with Woodbridge between Arie Ammann and now Eli, outside of one DQ for using Burris Blend last year.

Hopefully you have a chance to make it to BeaveRun for one of our schools, practices and/or races so we can finally meet!

Dan

[Hal Brown]

Hi Dan,

We are trying to work out our summer schedule and definitely want to come up and run with you guys.

I am also looking for a kart for myself to run with the WKC. Something simple to set up and maintain and that will fit my 6' tall, 250 lb svelte frame. Any ideas?

Hal

[Marc Miller]

Hal,

There are a lot of options right now for good pricing on used karts. Dan, I'm sure, has a good selection - and we have a selection of nearly 40 used karts in good condition available.

[Dan Schlosser]

Eli will have fun with this group. We have 20-30 Cadets on a regular basis in two classes - Novice and Experienced - so he'll find someone to race with right away.

For you - I have a couple of options Birel M32, R32 (new 08) or R31. I'd be inclined to go with the 32mm karts though at 250 pounds. If you need the leg room we can set up any of those karts with an extended porch.

I'd guess to run with WKC you are probably looking at TAG or Rotax? I believe they require front brakes for everything over the cadet class. If that is the case then I have a CRX32 shifter kart coming in on consignment that may be even better. MRP has another shifter chassis still I believe that could work if the front brake requirement is accurate.

If you guys can make it up soon, try to work in a practice day before hand and we can get you out on track yourself to play a little. Just give me a little advance warning and we'll be able to get something together.

Dan

[Marc Miller]

We still have a couple new M32ST's with complete leopard kit for $4995 available. Might be a good choice.

[chad dokken]

the cry31s1 is the best raod race kart I have used yet. it works great to any changes I made. Two wins first weekend out and fast time. at wka nat.

[Marc Miller]

Thanks for your post Chad. That carries a lot of weight considering how many brands of karts you have been successful with. If you don't mind posting your set-up for others, I am sure it would be appreciated by all.

[bo rougeou]

I am ready to give this Birel to someone I hate!
We ran the second race of the year at Oakhill ,Tx. The track is old,bad pavement, slick,off camber and fast. We couldn't get close to the Intrepids. In the first race we determined that we needed a softer axle from the M we were on so this time we ran an F. No matter what we did,we couldn't get the loose out of it. Lowered the front,narrowed the back,checked the toe,put on long hubs, then axle stiffners..nothing. We use MG yellows at 8.5 cold. Should I sell this r32 and get an Intrepid? They beat us in every race but one. We have struggled with this kart for a year. Any ideas?

[Ryen Miller]

I am ready to give this Birel to someone I hate!
We ran the second race of the year at Oakhill ,Tx. The track is old,bad pavement, slick,off camber and fast. We couldn't get close to the Intrepids. In the first race we determined that we needed a softer axle from the M we were on so this time we ran an F. No matter what we did,we couldn't get the loose out of it. Lowered the front,narrowed the back,checked the toe,put on long hubs, then axle stiffners..nothing. We use MG yellows at 8.5 cold. Should I sell this r32 and get an Intrepid? They beat us in every race but one. We have struggled with this kart for a year. Any ideas?

i just started running a cr32 '08 in the stock moto, the kart is byfar the best handling kart out there, i would try running higher pressures like maybe 12-13 some guys run like 18 hot and i have the back all the way in on the short hitech hubs. i have the shorter front bar in of the 2 no middle bar . im running caster . m axle front is i think 2-3 spacers out.

i know donald mounted my seat further back then most . he likes the way it plants the back end. that might actully be something you should. i will measure how farback my seat is when i get home.

http://www.vholdr.com/node/44367

heres a vid, i screwed up and lost spots and had bruised ribs but you can see its just as fast as the intrepids and italkarts, it took me the whole race to catch back up. i know my tuning was close but not the best . theres still something to be found in the engine. don built a killer motor but just got to fine tune it now. that and the gearing was off i think

[bo rougeou]

Thanks for the vid. That is a beautiful track. With a grippy track like that we would run an M axle and a 19/23 ratio. We ran the Nationals at Eagles Canyon that is a grip track like that and had no issues with loose. (brakes that weekend). Your set up wouldn't work on a gripless track.

[Marc Miller]

Bo,

Sounds like your seat location might be the cause of this lack of grip. What seat is in the kart and what seat measurements have you used? Also, what is your dimensions (height, weight, etc).

[bo rougeou]

The seat is a Med-Large Ribtech. My Driver is 5'7",160# with muscle mass at the shoulders. We have 10 # of weight under the seat acting as spacers,5# on each side. The seat struts are Stone struts, one on each side. I can give you the exact measurement tomorrow.

[Marc Miller]

Thanks Bo- might want to take a few pictures as well, if possible.

[Dan Schlosser]

We carry and have mounted a few Ribtect seats for customers this season and as I recall the Birel suggested seat measurements were way off from our usual Freeline or Tillett placements. The Ribtect has less angle of inclination and a taller back making it near impossible to mount with a flat bottom and the proper measurements. In nearly all cases we moved the leading edges of the seats further back than typical by maybe 2-3 cm. While this still didn't get the axle to top edge of the seat measurement close to right, it did place the back edge of the seat further back in the kart and closer to what we'd expect to see from a Tillett. We also had some success in rotating the whole seat within the kart (leading edge up, trailing edge down and the flat part of the seat a few mm higher in the front than in the back).

Also, we've discouraged people from using their weights as spacers for seat mounting as it seems to deaden the feel or feedback in the seat somewhat. It also limits using the balast as a tuning tool if it can't be easily moved around on the seat.

[bo rougeou]

I went over my notes on the race where we took the weights out and used spacers. Other than being light the overall performance seemed to be better and more responsive to changes. We had brake issues in that race,but otherwise overall ok. Here are my seat measurements, I will post pix this pm when my computer xpert comes in.
back of seat to center of axle:1.5 "
bottom of seat to center of axle:9.75"
LF seat to steering post:3.25"
RF seat to steering post:3.25
L seat to F bumper:29-30"
L seat tab strut to seat:3"
R side seat to bumper:30"
steering post to back of seat:18.5"

[bo rougeou]

see attachments

[bo rougeou]

The site will only allow 4 pix. Maybe more tomorrow

[bo rougeou]

OK, I found the problem. Anybody care to guess what it is?

[Marc Miller]

Either a crack in the frame from mounting the lead weights in between the seat and mount, broken seat strut or broken mounting tab?

[bo rougeou]

You talked to Jason Lee this morning! Broken seat tab. Can I , no, may I weld this tab back with a brace on one side? And if I weld a brace on one side,should I brace the other side?

[Marc Miller]

No, I didn't. But looking at your handling issue and seeing how you had mounted your weights, it is not out of line to think your seat tabs would be under additional stress.

I would suggest replacing the frame to be honest. But it can be "repaired" but the stresses would then be distributed elsewhere. I assume it is a front mount that has been cracked?

[bo rougeou]

Mounting tab on the motor side. Broken completely off. Repairs will be in order unless someone is selling these frames cheap! Can I brace the weld?

[bo rougeou]

I have misplaced my phone number to order parts. May I have the number and name again ,please?

[Marc Miller]

Steve Miller - 269-756-9133.